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Iggy Horror Thread, Pt2: GND vs. Hostel, et al.

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  • Iggy Horror Thread, Pt2: GND vs. Hostel, et al.

    Contemplating current trends in the genre got me to thinking about the latest craze we're seeing the evolution of: so called torture porn. Movies like the Saw series, Hostel & Hostel: Part 2, Captivity, The Strangers, etc. I admit to enjoying some of these films in their entirety, and parts of some of the others. But this sub-genre seems to be generally looked down upon. Many feel they are mean spirited in tone & execution, in a way slashers never seemed to be for some reason. I guess a whole debate can be started about the question of why that is, and by all means please proffer opinions on that score. But the thrust of this thread is a bit different.

    Part of my musings was to contemplate Jack Ketchum's horror masterwork The Girl Next Door, in both written & film versions. Now, while I said I enjoyed Hostel and some of the others, I enjoyed GND a whole lot more.

    Well. maybe "enjoyed" isn't the right word. If you've ever read it, you know what I mean. You feel angry, horrified & disgusted (with humanity in general, but to some extent with yourself) in equal measure when you finish this book. It is without a doubt the most powerful piece of fiction I think I've ever read. As a jaded horror fan for decades, I thought nothing could shock me any more. And Jack Ketchum did just that. EVERYONE I have ever spoken with who has read this book agrees with me. I recommended it in the highest way to a couple friends, and one refuses to read it becasue he has daughters, & he thinks the concept of the book sounds too mean spirited.

    but despite its unquestionaby horrific subject matter, I never thought of GND as "mean spirited". So (and you see it coming don't you?), I got to wonderin': why is that? Why is this powerfully horrifying, shocking piece of film/literature, which involves the graphic torture of a 14 y.o. girl, not mean spirited, in the way torture porn is usually perceived (& make no mistake, I am not relegating GND into that sub genre by any means)?

    Keep in mind GND was written & 1st published in 1982, but a shitty distribution deal (I think the publisher was actually ashamed of it) saw to its premature demise, until King's mention of Ketchum in his "On Writing" treatise directed the public at large's interest his way. I think that has something to do with it. I've gone on at great length in the past about how I think the rise of torture porn parallels our fears as a society of terrorism. It can strike anywhere, without warning; even in one's own home. Nowhere is safe. And there is no morality to torture porn; the victims rarely "deserve" their fates in the same way the victims of the slashers or EC-style revenge based horror did (enforcement of the archaic code of morality in horror films being the watchword; don't do drugs or have sex, or cheat on your wife/GF, or murder your business partner, etc.). Much like a skyscraper being struck by a jetliner doesn't care who it crushes when it collapses, the amoral sadists dishing out the torture in torture porn flicks don't care who the targets of their aggression are. Graphic depictions of pain being inflicted, with the concomitant gore & horror, for their own sake, are the goal here. There is no higher purpose than to hammer home the point that no one anywhere is truly safe.

    Not that that's necessarily bad per se; hey, I'm an avowed gore hound. And I applaud the demise of the horror film code of conduct. The randomness also makes for more effective & terrifying film presentations, IMO. We don't know w/ nearly as much certainty who's going to live or die in a horror movie as we once did.

    But when one analyzes GND, I think there's at least one more layer of substance here. Morality, but of a totally different kind than that of the slasher film, is presented (in that while Meg hardly deserves her fate in the "traditional" horro film victim sense, we vicariously condemn the actions of Ruth & the neighborhood kids including the ambivalence & delayed development of a backbone in Davy, the narrator.

    But at the same time, we sympathize at least a bit with Davy, because we remember how powerless we felt as kids in the face of adult authority, and the tendency of Americans to mind their own business & not get overly involved in their neighbors' affairs (particularly in the 50's, when this story is set). e sympathize with Meg, of course, who never in any way asked for any of this. The victims in torture porn are almost never presented as being at all sympathetic. Perhaps because the violence and degradation are kind of the point, we seem to WANT them dead. We're almost rooting for the killers. Not so with Meg. We keep hoping, page after page, that her release will be at hand. These themes are totally lacking from torture porn.

    There is no morality or sympathy to speak of in any of them, save perhaps Saw and its progeny (in that we are left to wonder if Jigsaw's "puzzles" are evil, in that they often lead to the pain & death of the "victims", or not evil because they wake up some who took their lives for granted to how precious a gift that life is. And even that's a thin veneer, rubbing off even further w/ each sequel, I'd venture [don't know for sure; I stopped at III]). I'd hazard a guess that no one feels any wellspring of sympathy for any of the perpatrators in a torture porn film. No childhood trauma is typically presented that explains their being driven to these acts, the way there typically is in a slasher film. They're just dropped into the film as evil, dpraved sociopaths. Ruth's psychosis is explained (albeit not excused) by the stressors of her husband leaving her & raising 2 boys on her own, perhaps generating a Death-Valley low level of sympathy even for her.

    One gets the sense that Ketchum wasn't out merely to horrify his reader (or filmgoer). Make no mistake; he was. But horror for its own sake was never his only goal. Remember in the Sandman comics, when Dream tracks down the first Corinthian, & says he was meant, as Dream's masterpiece Nightmare, to be a reflection of the darkness in mankind's soul? But instead, by fostering the development of a legion of serial killers, and becoming one of some reknown himself, all he ended up doing was "giving mortals something else to be scared of." I think this is an apt analogy here; even the most worthy torture porn film is just something to be scared of. They do little, perhaps because they're always entirely fictional (and a little outlandish at times *Cough!* Saw *Cough!*), to actually reflect in any effective manner, the darkness in mens' souls. GND, I submit, does. And not just because it's based on a true story, but beacause of the multiple layers of complexity to the narrative, the characters & their actions (or lack thereof), which present actual themes or morals to this story.

    In short, gruesome as it is, don't ever call GND torture porn.

    Thoughts? Opinions? Agreement? Disagreement? Rotten tomatoes? Share it all here.
    I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


    2012 Avatar Theme: Jan-Red Borg. Feb-Red Borg, Mar-Red Borg, Apr-Red Borg, May-Red Borg. Jun-Red Borg. Jul-Red Borg. Aug-Red Borg. Sep-Red Borg. Oct-Red Borg. Nov-Red Borg. Dec-Red Borg.

  • #2
    Thanks for the tip on Girl Next Door... must read this. Also you raised a hell of a lot of valid points in your post. Complete agreement.

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    • #3
      Perhaps I was TOO thorough? No one seems to want to debate anything.
      I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


      2012 Avatar Theme: Jan-Red Borg. Feb-Red Borg, Mar-Red Borg, Apr-Red Borg, May-Red Borg. Jun-Red Borg. Jul-Red Borg. Aug-Red Borg. Sep-Red Borg. Oct-Red Borg. Nov-Red Borg. Dec-Red Borg.

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      • #4
        Seriously. It's too hard to even come up with an opposing side here.
        "Looking like Nic Cage dressed in Kurt Cobain's closet. I mean that as a compliment" - BillyG

        "Too cunty for wine bars, too dainty for real bars." - Anderson

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        • #5
          I haven't had a chance to read GND yet, but I did some research on the book as well as the actual case the book was based on. Damn harrowing stuff, and the fact that it happened IRL should automatically distance it from the "torture porn" label we get in films like Hostel and Saw.

          I'd also venture to say that because GND was based, however loosely, on an actual event it adds a different dimension than a similar themed film. In fact, I think that's why "torture porn" flicks aren't in the same category - ultimately, you KNOW the stuff you're watching is make-believe, and I'd say most fans that watch such films are doing so more for the creative kills and resulting gore than for anything deeper. Watching (more like hearing) Liv Tyler
            Spoiler: SPOILER! 
          die
          at the end of The Strangers automatically creates that disassociation - you know she'll be back in another flick hale and healthy. Same with the Saw films - the devices and traps Jigsaw uses are elaborate, as are his plans within plans, etc. Such is the media of film, and the knowledge of the average film fan could break the kills down further into component special effects (# of squibs used, homage to a kill in another film, etc.)

          With GND, you don't get that - that shit is a dramatization of something that really happened. A real girl was tortured and killed for no reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time - more terrifying as in the actual case the book was based on, her own parents put her into that situation, and are culpable in her death to a serious extent.

          Iggy, I do apologize if I went off topic, and I do intend to read GND soon so as to better respond to this point you've raised. Keep these threads coming, son!

          Comment


          • #6
            I can't watch 'torture porn' horror movies. I love thrillers and enjoy well-made 'scary/horror' movies, but that genre is just too out there for me. I could never make it through a 'Hostel/'Saw' type film without turning it off.
            Originally posted by Martin
            Who the fuck is Kellan Lutz?
            Originally posted by gravedigger
            Basically what I'm saying is that, based on what I've watched so far, we should all listen to Matt more often.
            Originally posted by Martin
            And who the FUCK is Peaches Geldof?
            Kellan Lutz's girlfriend?

            Comment


            • #7
              I love that you're doing these Iggy. The drought in debate is fine when the topic piques interest.

              On my way to the last brick and mortar store now...
              Me quick one want slow

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Timothy225 View Post
                Iggy, I do apologize if I went off topic, and I do intend to read GND soon so as to better respond to this point you've raised. Keep these threads coming, son!
                Where, exactly, did you go off topic?

                Seriously, I met Jack Ketchum at a screening of GND in NYC, & he said he toned the book DOWN from the IRL story. That blows my fuckin' mind.

                I think a salient difference between torture porn and slashers - which was the dominant sub-genre immediately preceding the current trend - is that slashers are rarely mean spirited. There are a couple, like Maniac, maybe an F13 installment or two (Pt IV had some meanness to it, IIRC), & Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer that are kind of mean. But almost all of the others, no matter how gory the kills, had a sense of fun about them. That can be off putting in a movie that's supposed to scare you, so its absence from torture porn may not necessarily be a bad thing. But I don't think I'll look back fondly on too many of them the way we all seem to be doing w/ 80's slashers we recall from our youth.
                I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


                2012 Avatar Theme: Jan-Red Borg. Feb-Red Borg, Mar-Red Borg, Apr-Red Borg, May-Red Borg. Jun-Red Borg. Jul-Red Borg. Aug-Red Borg. Sep-Red Borg. Oct-Red Borg. Nov-Red Borg. Dec-Red Borg.

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                • #9
                  You nailed it: I want my thrillers/slashers to be FUN.
                  Originally posted by Martin
                  Who the fuck is Kellan Lutz?
                  Originally posted by gravedigger
                  Basically what I'm saying is that, based on what I've watched so far, we should all listen to Matt more often.
                  Originally posted by Martin
                  And who the FUCK is Peaches Geldof?
                  Kellan Lutz's girlfriend?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Matt View Post
                    I can't watch 'torture porn' horror movies. I love thrillers and enjoy well-made 'scary/horror' movies, but that genre is just too out there for me. I could never make it through a 'Hostel/'Saw' type film without turning it off.
                    I used to be in the same boat, Matt. I really had no interest in that genre of horror flicks, until I caught flicks like Snuff, Faces of Death, Cannibal Ferox, etc. ( hey it was the early '80s, a friend of a friend of mine knew a guy who knew a guy who SWORE up and down this shit was real, etc.).

                    Torture porn was the next level of horror, really, as it was usually a normal, every day human being doing twisted shit to another normal human being. It wasn't a monster, it wasn't a zombie, it wasn't Jason or Freddy, it was Joe Blow from down the street. I'd argue that was one of the reasons Silence of the Lambs worked so well - Hannibal Lecter was pretty terrifying, but Jame Gumm was ten times worse. Lecter was right in front of you, but on your playing ground, whereas, Gumm's confrontation with Clarice was in his house, in his basement, in the dark, with Gumm rocking night-vision glasses. And all that shit was going on in the basement of a house in the 'burbs, not off a beaten path or out in the sticks. (See? even in horror it's location, location, location!)

                    Iggy, wasn't sure if I was meandering off the main point you raised. Just wanted to be sure!

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                    • #11
                      But stuff in SotL is described, not shown. We didn't see Jame Gumb skinning his victims and taking pleasure in the act. We didn't see the girls breaking off their fingernails while trying to climb out of the pit. We have restraint...we have imagination...the focus is on the intellectual, not the physical. WHY is he doing these things? Me, I find THAT kind of film exciting as hell...I DON"T NEED to see people in pain. I don't get that thrill from watching people suffer.

                      And I'm NOT making a judgment on you if you DO get a thrill from that. To each their own and all that.
                      Originally posted by Martin
                      Who the fuck is Kellan Lutz?
                      Originally posted by gravedigger
                      Basically what I'm saying is that, based on what I've watched so far, we should all listen to Matt more often.
                      Originally posted by Martin
                      And who the FUCK is Peaches Geldof?
                      Kellan Lutz's girlfriend?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I emphatically agree with you, Matt. The film was far more effective without seeing the nastiness, which made whatever you did see in that film more horrifying (the mess in the bathtub, Jame stitching together his suit on the sewing machine, the fingernails, etc.).

                        As for any vicarious thrill from watching folks get offed in torture porn, in my case, the thrill is more in seeing HOW they go as opposed to watching 'em die. If the kill is creative, it'll hold my interest. But, again, and I apologize if I come off as one, I'm not that much of a fiend - I can't watch Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer with any regularity as those kills are way too brutal for me (the scene where the kid gets whacked while trying to defend his mom just bugs the hell out of me - FAST FORWARD POWERS, ACTIVATE!). Also the scene in Hostel 2 where Heather Matarazzo is turned into a literal shower of blood by scythe cut has me wincing and scrambling for the remote. Same holds true for Last House on The Left (original), and so on.

                        Truth be known? I'm more apt to reach for a Hammer flick or a good old fashioned monster movie that Saw XIII: This Time It's The Last One. For Serious! Honest!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          W/ me it's not so much the suffering I like as the gore in general. A quick but innovative, well executed kill is at least as good as - if not better than - any long drawn out torture scene. On that level, I don't "enjoy" torture scenes as much. But very often, thinking about how much what's happening must HURT makes me squirm. And I guess that's the point. It's horror of a sort. A lowest common denominator sort, to be sure, but still on point w/ resepct to the mission statement.
                          I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


                          2012 Avatar Theme: Jan-Red Borg. Feb-Red Borg, Mar-Red Borg, Apr-Red Borg, May-Red Borg. Jun-Red Borg. Jul-Red Borg. Aug-Red Borg. Sep-Red Borg. Oct-Red Borg. Nov-Red Borg. Dec-Red Borg.

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                          • #14
                            I've often wondered if whatever pain your average movie victim is going through would be mitigated by the adrenaline shooting through their system while they're being scared, attacked or mutilated IRL. Eventually, said victim would die from shock long before the killer was done with them.

                            To run with Iggy's point re: gore - I've seen enough movie stuff that I've gotten inured to it, but, as always, real life stuff (LiveLeak, Rotten.com, The YNC.com) makes me wince and twitch enough to get away from such websites in a fucking hurry. Oh, I've seen more than my fair share, but when you realize that's somebody's kid, relative, friend, etc. and not an actor with latex and kayro syrup.... not a good time, folks.

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                            • #15
                              I can take gore at tasteful levels OR if the context of the situation requires it. The opening 20 minutes of 'Saving Private Ryan' has more gore than most horror films but it works...the context requires it, and the emotions involved in seeing the gore are correct: the horror of war. There's no GLEE involved in it...there's not sadism or mashochism involved...it's just the reality of the situation. You're not finding entertainment value in the gore itself.
                              Originally posted by Martin
                              Who the fuck is Kellan Lutz?
                              Originally posted by gravedigger
                              Basically what I'm saying is that, based on what I've watched so far, we should all listen to Matt more often.
                              Originally posted by Martin
                              And who the FUCK is Peaches Geldof?
                              Kellan Lutz's girlfriend?

                              Comment

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