Avengers Assemble!

[Abraham Smashington]

TL;DR

kidding, but hopefully the sequel pleases you. I'll be over here enjoying the fuck out of a movie that I still can't believe was made.

[Matt]

She was pretry damned hot in that skin tight SHIELD uniform. I'll board that lovetrain.

[Captain Russ]

If I'm not branded an outlaw and banished to the unknown territories by this point, I'd like to reserve a seat in the first class cabin, please.

Outlaws are more fun. Think of it as a badge of hono(u)r.

I see how it didn't click like the others for you, and in several ways you described could see how the film could have been tweaked in several ways to resonate on a somewhat relatable level. The rumored Cap as centerpiece SHOULD have been. It served well in the comics, it could have showed the indomitable spirit of man to willfully accept change and grow to face the future. Going with RDJ was understandable since he was the biggest name up to the point The Avengers was in production, but the overly humorous beats that came with such a decision did wear thin on occasion. In his own element, being taken down a peg by Paltrow is where that character's idiosyncrasies shine. But I can see how the tone established in Iron Man was used as a sort of shorthand to shoehorn everyone else into a shared existence.

The price for consistency it would seem would be what you describe. The more time passes, the more people will probably be of the same mind.

[Anderson]

I only discovered her review yesterday so I don't know much about the broader context of it. Whatever that may be, her complaints with the film remain perfectly valid.



Mate, you said seeing The Avengers without seeing any of its predecessors is "like seeing the last episode of a season of a long form television series. So that gripe is kind of pointless." And the point about Hawkeye/Black Widow's lack of development was still just a "minor gripe" to you. Also, my expectation for the film wasn't that it would be something "completely different" from its cinematic siblings. I just wanted to be entertained, same as the next cat.

I wouldn't have it so that every film spins on endless conversations and ponderous thematic sequences. I'm not that guy. I thought I'd posted enough times about Stuart Gordon in the past to dispel that notion. I could get on board with a version of The Avengers not too dissimilar to the one we got if it had anything like the emotional substance of its predecessors -- the films we've both been watching and enjoying for the last 4 years waiting for this to happen. I never professed to have an answer to the film's problems, a quick-fix solution for the ultimate Avengers flick, although I'd argue that finding the story through the characters as opposed to dumping a lot of them into a generic seat-filling blockbuster premise may have been an improvement.

I don't think I've read anything like the amount of comics some of you have. However, I've read enough to know that the best examples of the form are nothing like the ones filled with endless video game brawls. That doesn't mean "only the ones without fights are good." It means a fight means a whole lot more if there's something riding on it, something that's been developed and engages the viewer on an emotional level as well as providing eye candy. It can be simple, though it doesn't have to be. The Magic MacGuffin Allspark Box doesn't quite cut it.

It's great to see so many people passionate about a film, especially a fanbase as notoriously difficult to please en masse as genre cats. That said, the sheer fervency of the defence for this movie just reads to me like the kind of "nerd as sports fan" attitude Devin wrote about in his piece that's doing the rounds. I keep hearing reasons why complaints against this movie are illegitimate or misguided somehow, yet most of the defence arguments sound more like excuses; like giving Thor's misuse here a pass because his own film was so good or you just generally like the character. Even though I love Winona Ryder - and I really, really do - you won't see me watching all of her movies. In short, people's interest in these characters seems to be *ahem* shielding them from its meh-ness.



Dude, this is the thing... I'm just like you in that sense. This should have been one of the few movies where I get swept up with the moment and perhaps be that little bit more forgiving than usual when it comes to the technical aspects. I watched all my homework before going into this. Happily so. I went in fully expecting to be dazzled and--

Shrug.

Aside from a handful of elements, the film left me with a real sense of disappointment because of the sloppiness of its foundations and its dearth of style. Had there even been a firm voice to it, I might have been inclined to invoke the honourable Judge Reinhold and say "I'm going to allow it." But no. It literally had nothing to say. I'm not asking for a meditation on man's place in the universe, not here. A short, simple statement would have sufficed. Anything. Alas, it wasn't forthcoming.

I just kept sitting there, waiting and hoping to be wowed, only to feel it passing by. It had the trademark Whedonspeak, which comes perilously close to making everyone sound the same at times. That identified the author. The movie itself, though? A muddle of "properties," not characters; of tired action beats and set-pieces, not many true big movie moments. No strong tone to speak of, either (no time for it in the mad dash to the next flat fight.)

There were glimmers of that anti-studio feel you speak of. Only glimmers. The strength of Ruffallo and Evans, as well as the interplay between the former and Downey, Jr, which I mentioned initially. Hiddlestone making an underwritten part look better than it is. Those are the things that really made an impact on me. Like I said to Rob above, I'm not sure I can pull a better version of the movie out of my figurative hat right now, but I'd be much more interested in exploring those characters and finding an exciting, worthwhile struggle for them to endure. This is what I meant before. Joss's intentions were obviously good, because the film - on paper - was kind of doing that. He just didn't pull it off onscreen.

A better movie seemed to be trapped in a stifling zip-lock bag for 2 and a half hours, jabbing for freedom. It managed to punch a few holes to keep itself alive. That's about it. There were far too many times it felt like Dark Helmet got his hands on a new set of action figures and decided to see how many different combinations he could make with the team-members, like he was conducting some sort of megabucks, CG-laden orgy.

As someone who normally makes the point about how "the joke/story is in the telling" to other people, your point about freshness isn't lost on me. One of the things I've been getting at all along is how disinterested the film seemed in that very simple truth. The whole film seems to willfully eschew heart in favour of "spectacle." Yes, the summer season requires a different mindset. That's still no excuse for such a sloppy, juvenile approach to storytelling. Anyone who tells you different is selling something.*

I'd accept this level of sophistication with a shrug if I were playing the official Avengers game. I expected more from the film, especially given the pedigree.



If I'm not branded an outlaw and banished to the unknown territories by this point, I'd like to reserve a seat in the first class cabin, please.

* Especially when you consider that, until now, Marvel's greatest critical selling point with its movies had been their emphasis on characters, how identifiable they are, the strong emotional connections they form with each other and audiences.

I have complaints with the film, but her review started from a weak point and then she tried to edit it into a solid point. So, I'm not too terribly concerned about her stumbling into validity.

That being said, I really hate Whedon. I mean, I fucking hate the guy. But, he managed to pull it together with a few minor hiccups.

[Abraham Smashington]

Interesting.

[Martin]

I'm also down with Nathan on the Cobie Smulders love train. Really, really want a SHIELD movie with her and Jackson at this point. Fighting Hydra. Or AIM. With MODOK. AIM and MODOK. NOW.

I shall drive the train.

[B_Metal]

I'll toot the horn at intersections.

[Martin]

Interesting.

That's one smart dude who sure like to waste time overthinking movies, but it's at least interesting to read

[Ben Thomas]

His piece on Avatar was pretty great.

[Abraham Smashington]

Yeah it was Ben. I really enjoy articles like that, especially about films I dig.

[Martin]

The Avatar piece was his best.

[Ben Thomas]

Am I right in saying he used to work for SETI? Fuck me, he's like my ultimate drinking buddy. Chat aliens AND movies?

[Bobby Bear]

More than welcome in first class, Bobby. Enjoy!

Watched HIMYM last night, Robin was looking very leggy in a couple of scenes.

Cheers, man! I'm glad I haven't gotten myself banished with my anti-avenging sentiments (yet?) Hopefully I haven't annoyed anyone in the process, either. I really was just enjoying the discussion, but I'm aware that sometimes I can come off a bit aggro unintentionally.

Also...

Leggy girl challenge accepted, Sir Timothy of The Americas!

TL;DR

kidding, but hopefully the sequel pleases you.

*Agreetodisagreefist*

I feel the same way, man. It really sucks to be disappointed by this because I did want to love it. Mind you, this could well prove to be another Hot Rod, where I crawl back into the thread through the cat-flap, Homer style, after a second screening. To paraphrase Samuel R. Hagar, only time will tell if this movie stands Bobby's time-honoured second time test. Time time time....

Time.

Outlaws are more fun. Think of it as a badge of hono(u)r.

I see how it didn't click like the others for you, and in several ways you described could see how the film could have been tweaked in several ways to resonate on a somewhat relatable level. The rumored Cap as centerpiece SHOULD have been. It served well in the comics, it could have showed the indomitable spirit of man to willfully accept change and grow to face the future. Going with RDJ was understandable since he was the biggest name up to the point The Avengers was in production, but the overly humorous beats that came with such a decision did wear thin on occasion. In his own element, being taken down a peg by Paltrow is where that character's idiosyncrasies shine. But I can see how the tone established in Iron Man was used as a sort of shorthand to shoehorn everyone else into a shared existence.

The price for consistency it would seem would be what you describe. The more time passes, the more people will probably be of the same mind.

Excellent. Should I withdraw my handle from the boards and start wearing a poncho, or go for more of a Spike style disarming anti-hero/outlaw?

I didn't know about the rumoured Cap angle! That could have been great; it's exactly the sort of thing I would have preferred for the movie. Still, this has been a fantastic discussion, the best of its kind I've taken part in in far too long. Some really salient points, sir. Excellent work as usual (+1 for your attention to regional spelling.)

[Timothy225]

Leggy girl challenge accepted, Sir Timothy of The Americas!

Also, don't be afraid to stand by your opinion, Bobby. As Cap would say...

[Bobby Bear]

Also, don't be afraid to stand by your opinion, Bobby.

Sound advice as ever, sir. Besides, I'm really coming around on the whole poncho thing. Possibly a hat, also.

Hmm.

The Bear with No Name? Or is that more of a user-title than a handle?