Avengers Assemble!

[Bobby Bear]

Search your feelings, Bobby...you know it to be true.

For what it's worth, i got raked over the coals for daring to not love DRIVE.

My man! ("Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!" etc.)

It's not even bothering me, mate. I'm enjoying talking about it. I just find it odd that the movie is getting this reaction from such a notoriously discerning group.

Matt and Bobby. Thelma and Louise.

Always two there are: a master and an apprentice (I'm the apprentice.)

Also, if you're single, Amy Nicholson, I hereby invite you to dinner.

The way she encapsulates the movie's flaws, the hollowness of it all, the corners Whedon must have been painted into because of the hodgepodge of continuity he had to work with and all the $$$'s on the line, it just nails it. Her points about Thor and the climactic battle are as perceptive as they are hilarious.

I really take no joy in being disappointed by the movie (like Nicholson.) This is simply the most accurate review I've read of a new release in ages. By the way, how disgusting is it the way all those creeps dog-piled on her because she didn't drool all over the flick? Giving geeks a bad name, those clowns.

[Abraham Smashington]

I still don't get why people would see this movie but not the other ones. That's like seeing the last episode of a season of a long form television series. So that gripe is kind of pointless. And I thank god that Joss didn't spend 30 mins explaining to the audience all of the people and their motivations. I only wish we got a little more of the backstory with Hawkey and BW. Still a minor gripe though.

[B_Metal]

How could you have missed it? That FUCKING SONG MANG! Plus Russ posted a picture that made me laugh. In the Drive thread I believe.

I'm seriously blanking on it. I blame my thyroid condition(memory loss is a symptom) and Ke$ha.

[Ari]

Solid logic.

[Bobby Bear]

I still don't get why people would see this movie but not the other ones. That's like seeing the last episode of a season of a long form television series. So that gripe is kind of pointless.

That's not really a fair analogy, man, or a pointless gripe. A movie like this isn't going to deliberately exclude any portion of the market, something reflected in the marketing. This may use existing characters, but it's a standalone movie in its own right, as already stated in the thread, not a true "sequel." I thought that's part of why people were digging it so much - it makes such a strong statement all by itself, despite its roots?

These characters are so ingrained in pop-culture now anyway that most people at least know of them, enough to have a sense of who is good or bad or what you; enough to get something out of it, at least. And even if they don't know much, the movie makes sure that the good and bad guys are very clearly defined. You'd need to be asleep for the act one stuff to not gain even a rudimentary sense of what's going on. Die-hards might get more out of it, but there's no way this was made solely for them. It is supposed to be a launchpad for even bigger adventures, after all.

But that's not why I linked to the review. I highlighted it because her points about the interaction between characters and why they're together in the first place are bang on. The lack of ambition (in what is an inherently ambitious concept), the haphazard excuses for endless video game brawls, the generally muddled, too-much-going-on vibe: that's what it boils down to.

I think the point about Thor encapsulates it. Selling the ending to that film - which had more on its mind than just $ signs - down the river for the sake of a big empty punch-up... it's almost condescendingly nonchalant in how it handles character and story. It's a business. I get it. But this is hardly the example of popcorn par excellence people are making it out to be. That, to me, was about one step away from the meta "joke" about Megan Fox's absence in Trans3formers.

[B_Metal]

NO.

[Anderson]

This is going so pear-shaped again that I'm having to hold back rage.

Especially...don't throw that Thompson review at me. She edited it twice after she got called out in the talkbacks. That's when the nerds really went nuts and went from assholes to going personal.

[Abraham Smashington]

Bobby, you misquoted me. I said the gripe was pointless in regards to the lack of character development for Hawkeye/BW.

Also, (I can't speak for all people) but I was excited about this flick precisely because I followed all of the single hero movies since like 2007. IT was all leading up to this since the end of Iron Man. Endless Video Game brawls? It's like you've never read a comic before. What would you have done? Honest question. Would it have been a better movie if the Avengers met up and talked for 35 minutes? Of course they were going to get heated, each of them has their own personality and motivations for what they want. And they pretty much go against what everyone else wants. It did seem, however, that there may be some cut footage during the Iron Man + Thor fight. Maybe it will be expanded on in the blu ray? Would I have liked it more if they would have went into more detail about Thor showing up on Earth? Sure, but that's because the Thor flick actually made me like the character, and more Thor = happy Rob. I mean, I get it, you were let down, but all of these gripes seem like you thought Marvel's giant movie was going to be something completely different than the flicks that came before it. And for that, I'm a sad. Also, that review reads like the annoying drama girl from high school. Have fun at dinner with her. She'll probably get annoyed if you try to pay.

[Captain Russ]

And I don't subscribe to the idea that "just because it's supposed to be FUN SUMMER WHOA BIFF BANG KAPOW" movie, that automatically grants it a get-out-of-depth-free card.

Your standards can't possibly be reached in such a climate, in such a season, save for by maybe a handful of films. It's why most people loathe the summer season (winter is where it's at).

I've come to the conclusion I'm simply just getting older, my tastes have changed somewhat, and usually I'm of the same mind on films in general as with how you describe your viewpoint. But I am also of the same mind to drop all pretension to the contrary when it suits my interests to let my nerd flag fly and get swept up in nostalgia like a pathetic fucking baby boomer.

Exceptions to the rule are made from time to time, precisely because they hit the right notes during the running time and make you forget you are going to die some day. For my experience, The Avengers did that without coming across in the same watered-down, compromised way many giant studio pictures have nailed down to a science, hitting every note as falsely as possible.

As for the story not being original or too routine, to pretend there is anything new under the sun is ridiculous. It's in how it is told, and here it was told as well as one could realistically expect. The patented "Kill 'character X' to up the stakes" beat Joss is such a big fatheaded fan of using for cheap dramatics was even used for a reason here. Cheap as it was (still is), it wasn't like when he offed Tudyk in that other film about rednecks in space.

As Roberto asked, what would you have amended? What would you have kept? What worked in your opinion?

[Nathan]

NEEDED MORE TITTIES Y'ALL!

[Captain Russ]

Agreed.

We ever gonna see Ms. Marvel? Or is Carol in the gulag over at Fox?

[Nathan]

I dug the flick. Thor's accent was so-so. Ruffalo was great. Cap was great. Downey, well duh. Plot holes were huge but so what? Scarjo was good, but I think the dark haired shield chick may be hotter.

Anyone have a link to the end credits stuff? I had to go back to work and missed it.

[Timothy225]

Agreed.

We ever gonna see Ms. Marvel? Or is Carol in the gulag over at Fox?

Hope she rocks one of these outfits onscreen:




I'm also down with Nathan on the Cobie Smulders love train. Really, really want a SHIELD movie with her and Jackson at this point. Fighting Hydra. Or AIM. With MODOK. AIM and MODOK. NOW.

[Bobby Bear]

This is going so pear-shaped again that I'm having to hold back rage.

Especially...don't throw that Thompson review at me. She edited it twice after she got called out in the talkbacks. That's when the nerds really went nuts and went from assholes to going personal.

I only discovered her review yesterday so I don't know much about the broader context of it. Whatever that may be, her complaints with the film remain perfectly valid.

Bobby, you misquoted me. I said the gripe was pointless in regards to the lack of character development for Hawkeye/BW.

Also, (I can't speak for all people) but I was excited about this flick precisely because I followed all of the single hero movies since like 2007. IT was all leading up to this since the end of Iron Man. Endless Video Game brawls? It's like you've never read a comic before. What would you have done? Honest question. Would it have been a better movie if the Avengers met up and talked for 35 minutes? Of course they were going to get heated, each of them has their own personality and motivations for what they want. And they pretty much go against what everyone else wants. It did seem, however, that there may be some cut footage during the Iron Man + Thor fight. Maybe it will be expanded on in the blu ray? Would I have liked it more if they would have went into more detail about Thor showing up on Earth? Sure, but that's because the Thor flick actually made me like the character, and more Thor = happy Rob. I mean, I get it, you were let down, but all of these gripes seem like you thought Marvel's giant movie was going to be something completely different than the flicks that came before it. And for that, I'm a sad. Also, that review reads like the annoying drama girl from high school. Have fun at dinner with her. She'll probably get annoyed if you try to pay.

Mate, you said seeing The Avengers without seeing any of its predecessors is "like seeing the last episode of a season of a long form television series. So that gripe is kind of pointless." And the point about Hawkeye/Black Widow's lack of development was still just a "minor gripe" to you. Also, my expectation for the film wasn't that it would be something "completely different" from its cinematic siblings. I just wanted to be entertained, same as the next cat.

I wouldn't have it so that every film spins on endless conversations and ponderous thematic sequences. I'm not that guy. I thought I'd posted enough times about Stuart Gordon in the past to dispel that notion. I could get on board with a version of The Avengers not too dissimilar to the one we got if it had anything like the emotional substance of its predecessors -- the films we've both been watching and enjoying for the last 4 years waiting for this to happen. I never professed to have an answer to the film's problems, a quick-fix solution for the ultimate Avengers flick, although I'd argue that finding the story through the characters as opposed to dumping a lot of them into a generic seat-filling blockbuster premise may have been an improvement.

I don't think I've read anything like the amount of comics some of you have. However, I've read enough to know that the best examples of the form are nothing like the ones filled with endless video game brawls. That doesn't mean "only the ones without fights are good." It means a fight means a whole lot more if there's something riding on it, something that's been developed and engages the viewer on an emotional level as well as providing eye candy. It can be simple, though it doesn't have to be. The Magic MacGuffin Allspark Box doesn't quite cut it.

It's great to see so many people passionate about a film, especially a fanbase as notoriously difficult to please en masse as genre cats. That said, the sheer fervency of the defence for this movie just reads to me like the kind of "nerd as sports fan" attitude Devin wrote about in his piece that's doing the rounds. I keep hearing reasons why complaints against this movie are illegitimate or misguided somehow, yet most of the defence arguments sound more like excuses; like giving Thor's misuse here a pass because his own film was so good or you just generally like the character. Even though I love Winona Ryder - and I really, really do - you won't see me watching all of her movies. In short, people's interest in these characters seems to be *ahem* shielding them from its meh-ness.

... usually I'm of the same mind on films in general as with how you describe your viewpoint. But I am also of the same mind to drop all pretension to the contrary when it suits my interests to let my nerd flag fly....

As for the story not being original or too routine, to pretend there is anything new under the sun is ridiculous. It's in how it is told, and here it was told as well as one could realistically expect. The patented "Kill 'character X' to up the stakes" beat Joss is such a big fatheaded fan of using for cheap dramatics was even used for a reason here. Cheap as it was (still is), it wasn't like when he offed Tudyk in that other film about rednecks in space.

As Roberto asked, what would you have amended? What would you have kept? What worked in your opinion?

Dude, this is the thing... I'm just like you in that sense. This should have been one of the few movies where I get swept up with the moment and perhaps be that little bit more forgiving than usual when it comes to the technical aspects. I watched all my homework before going into this. Happily so. I went in fully expecting to be dazzled and--

Shrug.

Aside from a handful of elements, the film left me with a real sense of disappointment because of the sloppiness of its foundations and its dearth of style. Had there even been a firm voice to it, I might have been inclined to invoke the honourable Judge Reinhold and say "I'm going to allow it." But no. It literally had nothing to say. I'm not asking for a meditation on man's place in the universe, not here. A short, simple statement would have sufficed. Anything. Alas, it wasn't forthcoming.

I just kept sitting there, waiting and hoping to be wowed, only to feel it passing by. It had the trademark Whedonspeak, which comes perilously close to making everyone sound the same at times. That identified the author. The movie itself, though? A muddle of "properties," not characters; of tired action beats and set-pieces, not many true big movie moments. No strong tone to speak of, either (no time for it in the mad dash to the next flat fight.)

There were glimmers of that anti-studio feel you speak of. Only glimmers. The strength of Ruffallo and Evans, as well as the interplay between the former and Downey, Jr, which I mentioned initially. Hiddlestone making an underwritten part look better than it is. Those are the things that really made an impact on me. Like I said to Rob above, I'm not sure I can pull a better version of the movie out of my figurative hat right now, but I'd be much more interested in exploring those characters and finding an exciting, worthwhile struggle for them to endure. This is what I meant before. Joss's intentions were obviously good, because the film - on paper - was kind of doing that. He just didn't pull it off onscreen.

A better movie seemed to be trapped in a stifling zip-lock bag for 2 and a half hours, jabbing for freedom. It managed to punch a few holes to keep itself alive. That's about it. There were far too many times it felt like Dark Helmet got his hands on a new set of action figures and decided to see how many different combinations he could make with the team-members, like he was conducting some sort of megabucks, CG-laden orgy.

As someone who normally makes the point about how "the joke/story is in the telling" to other people, your point about freshness isn't lost on me. One of the things I've been getting at all along is how disinterested the film seemed in that very simple truth. The whole film seems to willfully eschew heart in favour of "spectacle." Yes, the summer season requires a different mindset. That's still no excuse for such a sloppy, juvenile approach to storytelling. Anyone who tells you different is selling something.*

I'd accept this level of sophistication with a shrug if I were playing the official Avengers game. I expected more from the film, especially given the pedigree.

I'm also down with Nathan on the Cobie Smulders love train.

If I'm not branded an outlaw and banished to the unknown territories by this point, I'd like to reserve a seat in the first class cabin, please.

* Especially when you consider that, until now, Marvel's greatest critical selling point with its movies had been their emphasis on characters, how identifiable they are, the strong emotional connections they form with each other and audiences.

[Timothy225]

More than welcome in first class, Bobby. Enjoy!



Watched HIMYM last night, Robin was looking very leggy in a couple of scenes.