Courtney Love

[Timothy225]

OK, that's one for the Billdozer!

[Matt]

Come on. Courtney is WAY more talented than Yoko. No comparison.

can't disagree with this. I'll take Courtney's drunken-drugged out screaming over Yoko's AIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAIIII I screeching anyday.

[Lisa]

I'll grant you Cobain was talented, and had a lot of potential, but we're talking The Walrus here, folks.

Well if you look at is as he was discussing Yoko and Courtney, nail please meet this head and hit it.

See, this is one of the things that fucking pisses me off with respect to both Yoko and Courtney. I don't care how talented or untalented people think either one of them is, the implications/accusations that they were to blame for the demise of their husbands or their husbands' bands is ridiculous. It's so stupid and sexist, it never fails to chap my ass. So in other words, if the greatest rock band in the world can't decide what direction they should go in, or if another musical genius makes that final decision on his own to put a bullet through his head, then by all means, let's just blame their bitch wives, right? It couldn't be that these five men made these decisions on their own, could it? Nope, had to be those evil women pulling their strings, that's all. Whenever I hear these stupid fucking accusations, I just want to ask the person spouting them off - so what's the deal? Are your heroes musical geniuses or are they pussy whipped morons? Because you can't have it both ways.

[Timothy225]

I don't think either Yoko or Courtney were the sole reasons for whatever happened to John or Kurt, Lisa. In Lennon's case, he was in love with Yoko, and was getting less and less into being a Beatle. My guess is he probably felt he'd gone as far as he could musically and artistically with the Beatles, and opted for a solo career. McCartney quit the Beatles before John did, if I remember correctly, and the Beatles were pretty much done by then anyway (they weren't touring anymore, everyone was pursuing solo projects, etc.).

Kurt's case is a little different, but not by much. It seems to me that Kurt had a lot of issues before he even met Courtney, and while the two of 'em did enable each other drug-wise, I don't think Kurt was fully prepared for Nirvana to be as popular as they became. Artistically, he was under an unbelievable amount of pressure as a result, and he and Courtney also had a kid as well.

I think Kurt had so many personal demons to deal with that they overwhelmed him, leading to his suicide (he attempted suicide a few weeks prior to his final attempt, and I believe Courtney was with him trying to help him get better).

Now, I believe there might be some truth as to the other Beatles not being big on Yoko, and the surviving members of Nirvana weren't exactly Courtney's biggest fans, but I think both women were minor factors in the grand scheme of both bands breakup. The Beatles were headed for a breakup anyway by the time Yoko showed up, and Nirvana effectively ceased to exist after Kurt died.

As to the bitch wives thing - I never thought that about Yoko, so maybe I'm missing some info. I just think her music is too avant-garde for my tastes. Courtney's behavior before, during, and after her relationship with Kurt has been well documented - girl's got issues with substance abuse. When she's off them, like during her acting career, she's great, and I'd like to see more of that Courtney. Do I think she can get back to being clean, absolutely, and I hope this new album is the start of her getting her shit together.

Ultimately, and to reiterate, I don't think either woman was responsible for the ultimate breakups of both bands. They might've been small factors in the ultimate fates of both bands, but there was far more going on behind the scenes in both the Beatles and Nirvana that ultimately led to their ends. I firmly believe that Cobain was stuck by his own celebrity and his own personal problems (I think I heard in a documentary that his heroin use was the only thing he thought he could do to alleviate his stomach problems, as past attempts getting it treated medically never worked for him. I could be wrong, so...), and unless he gave all that up or took a massive break (like Lennon did to raise his son, Sean), he was destined to join the 27 Club like Morrison, Hendrix, and Joplin did.

[BillyG]

See, this is one of the things that fucking pisses me off with respect to both Yoko and Courtney. I don't care how talented or untalented people think either one of them is, the implications/accusations that they were to blame for the demise of their husbands or their husbands' bands is ridiculous.

But can we agree the world would be a better place if Yoko had been walking a step or two in front of John? And plenty of great men have also been pussy whipped. Plenty of men change once they meet "the girl" regardless of their station in life. I don't think its sexist to say that without a doubt that meeting a Courtney/Yoko affects your wants/desires in life, which in some cases lead to the demise of something else in your life (a skull/The Beatles). Kurt could have put the needle down, or John could have put his foot down (and hashed out the BS with Paul), but in addition to being great musicians they were indeed also pussy whipped or at the least their decisions in their lives were guided in part by their female counterparts. Every man loses a friend to a girl at some point, no real difference here. But anyone that solely blames the female is a twat.

For the record, my musical hero is Jerry Cantrell, so I'm impartial.

[Lisa]

As to the bitch wives thing - I never thought that about Yoko, so maybe I'm missing some info.

First off, the only reason I quoted you and Billy is because the two quotes together kind of gave me the ability to get my rant on - it wasn't anything that you specifically said, Tim.

But yeah, the "bitch wives" thing is an issue I've had for years about the two of them, and Yoko in particular. Whenever something bad happens to a group of guys, it's always easiest to just blame the wife of girlfriend of one of them.

The thing that particularly pisses me the fuck off about Yoko is that this ridiculous "legend", if I can use that word, that she broke up the Beatles has now officially been handed down from generation to generation of Beatle fans, and not one of these little turds bothers to pick up a couple of Beatles' biographies and even read about whether it's true or not, or if there were other factors involved. I mean, I hear fucking 19 year olds spouting off like they're Lester Bangs or something how Yoko broke up the Beatles. And they're normally mouthing off about her while they're clad in a Lennon tee shirt, which they wouldn't have on their smelly little bodies without the okay from Yoko Ono because of the licensing rights. Hell, the rumor that she broke up the Beatles has been passed down and undisputed for so many years, it's just accepted as fact, instead of the pure bullshit that it is.

And you are very correct about one thing that no one seems to want to acknowledge - the Beatles were virtually DONE with each other musically by the time John and Yoko became a couple.

Courtney's behavior before, during, and after her relationship with Kurt has been well documented - girl's got issues with substance abuse.

Yup - she's no angel, that's for sure. But given that they both had abuse problems, Howard made a very valid point yesterday - it could have just as easily Courtney who wound up dead instead of Kurt. The whisperings I've heard that she contributed to his death are as stupid as Yoko being blamed about the Beatles. Sure, someone pulled the trigger on Kurt - Kurt.

Plus, the way her own personal problems always loop around to "what she did to poor Kurt" also piss me off. I hear those more often than I'd care to - whenever she gets herself into more trouble, losing custody of Frances, posting drugged out rants on Twitter, etc., you can see the comments starting - first they comments start slagging on her, which hey - that's deserved. If you act like a drugged out lunatic, and people point out that you're a drugged out lunatic, you generally have only yourself to blame. But then sure enough, the comments will turn into stuff like, "Stupid whore - it's her fault Kurt's dead anyway." I mean, what the hell do her own problems have to do with her husband's decision to take himself out? And I hear shit like that all the time, and it just perpetuates the way both of these women are viewed.

[Lisa]

But can we agree the world would be a better place if Yoko had been walking a step or two in front of John?

No, actually, we can't agree. And you can guess what I think of remarks like that as well.

And to sit there and say, "Well, but they were influenced by these women" is still implying that it's their fault, when these men had every bit of the final say in their destinies. It's still just a short step away from blame.

[V]

"Stupid spoiled whore - it's her fault Kurt's dead anyway."

fixed...

[Lisa]

Okay, that was funny.

[V]

Okay, that was funny.

Made you laugh!

Mission?

ACCOMPLISHED!

[Abraham Smashington]

Courtney is a waste of space who lost all good will (I was on her side for the most part because who can be against a grieving widow?) after her husband died by first denying the fans new material only to then whore Kurt out once her money disappeared.

[Abraham Smashington]

And really, I have too much trivia in my head to get into a discussion about what or what didn't lead to the death of Kurt. Courtney was definitely a part, but in no means the reason.

[Martin]

Courtney still has one major flaw. She breathes. Worse still, people will celebrate and validate her existence afterward by praising Hole, an barely average band from the 90's. Fuck that. Her only true accomplishment in life is opening her vagina to Kurt Cobain, which she now does for a bit of crystal meth every day.

[Lisa]

See, I have no issues with people hating her, etc. It's just the idiotic reachings about how she supposedly killed Kurt or had a much bigger role in his death that I find retarded. Other than that, hate away, that's anyone's right.

[Martin]

She's probably not intelligent enough to kill someone. She's not even able to commit suicide, and God knows she's trying hard.