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Iggy Horror THread XII: Is Horror Misogynistic?

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  • Iggy Horror THread XII: Is Horror Misogynistic?

    This thread has been percolating in my mind for quite a while. It was sparked by a discussion I had w/ Chris O on fb about his opinion that VHS was a veritable study in misogyny. I disagreed with him on this point, and so annoyed was I that this seemed to be the general consensus among he & his film student brethren in that thread that I actually got a little snarky, something I rarely do. But I think they were all looking a little too hard to find misogyny in this film, and I commented that it must be kind of sad to be a film student, and unable, because of all the "knowledge" that study affords them, to appreciate a flm on a more surface level and just enjoy it for what it is without ascribing sinister motives to the film makers where I'm sure nmone was intended. But as I pondered the evidence to support my opinion, I started to ponder the big picture a bit more.
    My opinion is that VHS in particular & horror in general is not misogynistic as a general rule. Oh sure, you may get some particularly twisted film by an indie director that can be classified this way, but I'll be damned if I can think of one. But let's begin a little closer to the beginning shall we? In the early days of gothic horror novels & stories, and the films they inspired, women were seen as helpless victims of the monster antagonist. This much is true. But if one defines misogyny as the HATRED of women, as I am for purposes of this argument, I don't see that victim role as misogynistic. Quite the contrary; the heroes of such stories rsik their lives, their sanity, even their very souls to battle the monster threatening the damsel in distress. A perfect example is the band of heroes that sets out to destroy Count Dracula in the novel and the Coppola film adaptation. Van Helsing and the others barely know her, and are still willing to risk everything to save her. Quincy Morris, the American cowboy, ends up dying in the final confrontation. Gladly, no less, in one of the most emotionally powerful scenes in both the book and the film. And this remains true in the 50's creature features , with the square jawed, straight talking male protagonist carrying the fainting female victim from the monster's clutches. The laughably low budget "Attack of the Giant Leeches" is just one for instance of this phenomenon. As is "Creature from the Black Lagoon". This approach may be CHAUVANISTIC, but that's a far cry from misogynistic, except in the broadest definition of that term.
    Fast forward to the end of the 1970's, and John Carpenter's slasher subgenre-defining "Halloween". The female "victim" in that film and almost all the slashers that came after it for more than 20 years also turned out to be the protagonist, confronting and eventually overcoming (at least until the next sequel) the male villain. One could argue that putting a female character through so much suffering - as she watches her friends get killed in terrible, bloody ways, and is perhapsphysically injured herself (althpough always in a minor, nion fatal manner), and just being terrorized relentlessly in an emotional sense - is misogynistic. But would a film maker that truly hated women, and an audience that felt likewise, have that character ifnd reserves of inner strength she didn't know she possessed, to overcome the killer when so many iof her companions, male and female alike, had failed? Or respond favorably to her doing so? And audiences must have so responded, as this formula was rigidly played out in an endless string of slasher films. Studios wouldn't make them if no one wanted to see them. I'm tempted to argue that in the victimization of women, these flms mirrored real life, as the vast majority of serial killers are men targeting women. But most slasher villains don't behave like real life serial killers, who don't usually go on multi victim sprees. And they also kill plenty of men in most slasher films. So the victimology of the slasher film isn't really strictly misogynistic, either (even if serial killers are).
    One gripe the White Knights had with VHS was that several of the vignettes featured female antagonists. Apparently this was misogynistic, too. They stated the makers of VHS all had "issues" with women, and were playing out some kind of warped fantasy by making women into a flesh eating demon that gave a couple of roofie happy frat boys their comeuppance, or having the woman on the cross country trip with her boyfriend slitting his throat and robbing him. Ditto the woman rescued from a satanic ritual turn out to be a demon that strands the car of her would be rescuers in front of an oncoming train, or the surviving victim of an unfilmable slasher using her traveling companions as bait to lure him out so she could trap and kill him. I saw these devices as clever ways of turning some of the old memes on their heads, and showing a spark of innovation. Why is the flesh eating demon so different from the girl that captures and tortures the pedophile that murdered her friend in "Hard Candy"? Similarly, ruthlessness is a quality we as an audience dig in a villain like Hannibal Lecter. Why is it a "warped" way of working out "issues" in the case of the woman trying to kill the unfilmable killer? And why is Laurie Strode turning out to be anything but a helpless victim to be applauded while the seemingly helpless victim of the satanic ritual turning out to be the demon and dooming her rescuers deplorable? As formulaic as they were, not even all slasher films featured a male antagonist. I'm thinking of fllms like "April Fool's Day", "Friday the 13th" (remember, it was Mrs Voorhees in that one), and "Sleepway Camp" (at least, until the end). And while rare, there have been female serial killers in real life. I find it telling that these same critics found the vicitmization of the woman forced to carry the alien's offspring by her traitorous boyfriend equally deplorable. It's hard to figure out what role, exactly, would be acceptable for a female character in a horror movie.
    I suppose one could have an all male cast, and have men be victim, killer and hero. "The Thing" (the John Carpenter version) didn't have a single female character (although the antagonist was an asexual alien life form). And Jeffrey Dahmer stalked & murdered gay men. But I imagine painting gay men in so unflattering a light as killer or victom would be just as politically incorrect to them. And removing the sexual tension having a female/male confrontation typically contains would rob many films of an added layer of suspense, I'd argue. I shudder to think what this next generation of film makers will try to pass off as horror cinema. I foresee a bleak, soulless wasteland of inoffensive movies being made. At least for a while. I doubt it will take long for audiences to lose interest in such films - if they even get greenlighted in the first place - lamenting the days when horror fiction had some heart and genunine scares behind it.
    I've gone on record both here and at DERP as theorizing that the torture porn trend, with its mixed bag of victims from both sexes was a response to 9/11, and the way that event made us all feel helpless, and that any of us could be victimized at any time. But now that I think about it, perhaps ploitical correctness is playing a role here as well. "Hostel" featued just as many (if not more) male victims as female ones, and had a male version of Laurie Strode overcoming and escaping the killer's clutches. And "The Strangers" had as its most vocal villain a female killer, and a pretty egalitarian victim list. Most critics seem to think torture porn is a lowest common denominmator kind of film making, celebrating gore and violence for its own sake. But perhaps these same critics should look a little beyind the surface of THOSE films and see them for the sexual equaiizers they may be.
    At its core, horror has always been about man's (or monster's) inhumanity to man. Given the fact that more than 50% of the world's population is female, it stands to reason jst from a sheer numerical standpoint that at least half of the inhumanity is going to be visited on women, and that at least some percentage of those visiting the inhumanity will be women too. That's not misogynystic; it's FAIR. If antything, I'd argue that the evolution of horror fiction, cinematically in particular, reflects changing societal norms about the role of women, as they morphed from helpless, swooning victims that were the object of rescues by their male protectors to a more empowered role as strong protagonists and, eventually, the villans themselves in some cases. I have also gone on record as saying if nothing else, torture porn did away with the tired old morality of the slasher by making it clear that ANYONE can be a victim, whether they behaved "badly" or not. And this is a plus in my book, if for no other reason than because it made the plots of the films a lot less predictable. Similarly, I think the expanded role of women in films like VHS, where they can be the villains as well as the heroes or the victims, is to be applauded if for no other reason than because it also makes the films harder to pigeonhole and predict.

    What do all of you think?
    I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


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  • #2
    I apoligize that the above wasn't a little more well organized wth line breaks and such, but the 1oK character kimit is a harsh taskmaster.
    I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


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    • #3
      I'm onboard 100% with you, Ig. Misogynistic? Occasionally, sure, but only occasionally have I seen anything like that in horror. Hell, I'd even argue some of the chauvanistic bits here and there on early horror. Plenty of guys get whacked in horror just like women do, probably even more if you poke around the corpse long enough.

      Excellent examples you brought up too - I'd add the following as a matter of course.

      Interesting that you brought up Hostel, as most of the victims, Asian girl aside, were male. In Hostel 2, the ladies get their turn at the torture porn route, with Heather Matarazzo getting the Bathory treatment from Monika Malacova in a very cringe inducing death scene. Also, Lauren German's Beth gets a measure of payback with her infamous scene with Roger Bart. That scene alone serves as an effective, spiritual and philosophical "win" for any and all who feel women are unfairly victimized in horror flicks.

      Incidentally, mentioning Dracula, that was more of a Gothic love story with Drac going after Mina because she resembled his dead love, not so much as him wanting to harm her. Something similar played out during the first Fright Night with Jerry Dandrige and Amy. The Creature from the Black Lagoon wasn't menacing Julie Adams so much as taking her back to his cave (breeding, mayhaps?), but he killed damn near every guy he came across for fucking around on his turf.

      Also, the Descent flicks. Not only are the ladies being menaced by the cannibalistic mole people, but you do see a couple of women vs. women moments, too. Arguably, those are even worse from a horror standpoint as one's an accidental death/abandonment, and one's out of pure malice and betrayal. Women's scorn and all that.

      Ultimately, if one's trying to prove a point re: misogyny, if you have an agenda, it IS possible to find it in horror, but be prepared for plenty of blowback from those who try to prove misandry (man hating) in those self-same films.

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      • #4
        I was going to discuss the very pints you mention in Hiostel 2, but it ended up on the cutting room floor as I tried to get below 10K. And I'd argue that Drac & CftBL trying to make unwilling ladies their lovers is akin to false imprisonment at best, rape and bestiality at worst. To say nothing of the whole undead thing. We are led to believe this is a horrible fate for a God fearing Christian like Mina. Recall her cringing and crying "Unclean!" over & over again when Van Helsing touched the Host to her forehead & it burned her.
        I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


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        • #5
          Horror is misogynistic because no bro's ever twist their ankles whilst being chased by the monster. MMMMKay? Sorry, I have the flu and that's the best I got
          "Fuck Rob. Also, he has a podcast called Podcaust. Edgy Holocaust humor lulz indeed." - The Faraci

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          • #6
            I know you were kidding, but this points up the flaws in the white knights' argument. It's all about intent 99% of the time. I'm sure one could argue that the cliche tripping & falling scene we see in EVERY goddam slasher/monster film makes women appear clumsy &/or stupid. But I'm certain that's not what the film makers were going for. It's a lame & tired device to ratchet up the tension of the climactic chase scene. Similarly, the use of women as villains in VHS is meant to be a reversal of typical horror tropes & not the working out of "issues".
            I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


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            • #7
              Was totes kidding for sure, BUUUUT as an aside I could use way less cliche's in my horror flicks.
              "Fuck Rob. Also, he has a podcast called Podcaust. Edgy Holocaust humor lulz indeed." - The Faraci

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              • #8
                Originally posted by IggytheBorg View Post
                I was going to discuss the very pints you mention in Hiostel 2, but it ended up on the cutting room floor as I tried to get below 10K. And I'd argue that Drac & CftBL trying to make unwilling ladies their lovers is akin to false imprisonment at best, rape and bestiality at worst. To say nothing of the whole undead thing. We are led to believe this is a horrible fate for a God fearing Christian like Mina. Recall her cringing and crying "Unclean!" over & over again when Van Helsing touched the Host to her forehead & it burned her.
                For the Creature, I get your point and do agree. For Drac and Mina, sort of, as Drac spends quite a bit of time seducing her and Mina reciprocates to a point (depending on which version of the story you're watching/reading).

                As for the twisted ankle stuff, yeah, seems to happen to women moreso then men, mostly to heighten drama, suspense and the like. Although, in the films Hostel, Mother of Tears, Pet Sematary, Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, etc., us guys do have issues with our ankle tendons getting cut which is FAR worse.

                And don't get me started on screaming. Women's screams are higher pitched and more associated with danger (that goes back to the hunter-gatherer days where a higher, louder scream was necessary to get us males to drop the mammoth hunt and haul ass back to the cave because a sabre-tooth tiger or Neanderthal was going after our wimmens and kids), thus it's prevalence in horror flicks. Though Daniel Stern might have something to say about that.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by B_Metal View Post
                  Was totes kidding for sure, BUUUUT as an aside I could use way less cliche's in my horror flicks.
                  My point exactly. It just pisses me off that the PC police are starting such a backlash that it'll stifle creativity.
                  I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


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                  • #10
                    Wonderful thread, gents. It's great to see such a passionate discussion on the forum.

                    I'm not sure V/H/S is misogynistic necessarily. I do, however, think it's a lazy and thoroughly dull horror film which invites allegations of misogyny through its general sloppiness and poor storytelling. I seriously wonder how much someone like Wingard is concerned with anything beyond the superficial, so ascribing agendas - even dubious ones - to a film like that seems a bit too generous to me.

                    It's probably pretty obvious from the above, but all the slick yet toothless James Wan or James Wan-inflected rubbish (replete with found footage gimmicks and/or a dependance on lots of really, really quiet scenes featuring walking through dimly lit houses followed by REALLY, REALLY LOUD BITS with lots of SCREAMING AND FLASHLIGHTS!) have made me pretty cynical about a genre I love deeply.

                    Some of these films may look decent and feature good actors, but most of their edges have been smoothed to the point where, for me, they're pretty useless as horror films. Whereas Craven and his peers were delivering all the superficial requirements of the genre along with subtext and themes in the 70s and 80s, we now seem to have tone deaf stylists who make films that promote cheap jolts in lieu of proper scares and engaging storytelling (the British critic Mark Kermode also disapproves of this development).

                    V/H/S is a shallow film which deserves little attention, and I think its popularity is a sad comment on what many horror fans really want from the genre - titillation and manufactured 'retro cool'. Moreover, I very much doubt the classic themes of mortality, repressed desires, and the connection between sex and death matter to those who make and champion films like Insidious. It seems to me they're more interested in slamming doors and saying "Boo!"

                    Essentially, I'd rather give Creature another spin with Iggy and Tim. But will admiring Julie Adams make me the real monster? (CUE LIGHTNING/MUSIC).
                    "The bear is a solitary animal. They like their space. They live in a magic circle. They don't mind if you're, like, a mile away. But if you get inside their circle, they will maul you." - Anonymous

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                    • #11
                      For the record, JC's The Thing does have one negative connotation of gender specific origin.

                      MacReady does call his chess computer a "cheating bitch."

                      Anyway, I think most of the people who attempt to lay claim at some mysogynistic bent in a movie like VHS are trying to fit square pegs in round holes. They look silly for trying, but I admire the effort at analyzing it through the lens of gender roles, no matter how wrongheaded the conclusions.
                      Me quick one want slow

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bobby Bear View Post
                        Wonderful thread, gents. It's great to see such a passionate discussion on the forum.

                        I'm not sure V/H/S is misogynistic necessarily. I do, however, think it's a lazy and thoroughly dull horror film which invites allegations of misogyny through its general sloppiness and poor storytelling. I seriously wonder how much someone like Wingard is concerned with anything beyond the superficial, so ascribing agendas - even dubious ones - to a film like that seems a bit too generous to me.

                        It's probably pretty obvious from the above, but all the slick yet toothless James Wan or James Wan-inflected rubbish (replete with found footage gimmicks and/or a dependance on lots of really, really quiet scenes featuring walking through dimly lit houses followed by REALLY, REALLY LOUD BITS with lots of SCREAMING AND FLASHLIGHTS!) have made me pretty cynical about a genre I love deeply.

                        Some of these films may look decent and feature good actors, but most of their edges have been smoothed to the point where, for me, they're pretty useless as horror films. Whereas Craven and his peers were delivering all the superficial requirements of the genre along with subtext and themes in the 70s and 80s, we now seem to have tone deaf stylists who make films that promote cheap jolts in lieu of proper scares and engaging storytelling (the British critic Mark Kermode also disapproves of this development).

                        V/H/S is a shallow film which deserves little attention, and I think its popularity is a sad comment on what many horror fans really want from the genre - titillation and manufactured 'retro cool'. Moreover, I very much doubt the classic themes of mortality, repressed desires, and the connection between sex and death matter to those who make and champion films like Insidious. It seems to me they're more interested in slamming doors and saying "Boo!"

                        Essentially, I'd rather give Creature another spin with Iggy and Tim. But will admiring Julie Adams make me the real monster? (CUE LIGHTNING/MUSIC).
                        Probably right on all counts. I think their hearts were in the right place despite the poor execution, however. I forgive a lot of mis steps on the part of today's horror film makers because they grew up w/ a genre so mired in formulaic bullshit. True innovation was a rarity, and almost as soon as it got made,it was copied ad nauseum and became the latest "thing". It's kind of hard to think outside such an all-confining box.

                        I have been rather dismissive of a lot of the found footage, jump scare laden spook fests that have proliferated of late, spotting them for the bullshit they are from a long way off. For that reason, I hadn't become fully cognizant of the fact they were becoming so pervasive a trend until you crystallized that thought just now. At the risk of delving to film student depths into things: maybe the fact that often sexless spirits or demons are at the root of the scares in such films, effectively removing gender roles from the equation, is the leading edge of the soulless, dull "horror" films I predicted?
                        I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


                        2012 Avatar Theme: Jan-Red Borg. Feb-Red Borg, Mar-Red Borg, Apr-Red Borg, May-Red Borg. Jun-Red Borg. Jul-Red Borg. Aug-Red Borg. Sep-Red Borg. Oct-Red Borg. Nov-Red Borg. Dec-Red Borg.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bobby Bear View Post
                          Wonderful thread, gents. It's great to see such a passionate discussion on the forum.

                          I'm not sure V/H/S is misogynistic necessarily. I do, however, think it's a lazy and thoroughly dull horror film which invites allegations of misogyny through its general sloppiness and poor storytelling. I seriously wonder how much someone like Wingard is concerned with anything beyond the superficial, so ascribing agendas - even dubious ones - to a film like that seems a bit too generous to me.

                          It's probably pretty obvious from the above, but all the slick yet toothless James Wan or James Wan-inflected rubbish (replete with found footage gimmicks and/or a dependance on lots of really, really quiet scenes featuring walking through dimly lit houses followed by REALLY, REALLY LOUD BITS with lots of SCREAMING AND FLASHLIGHTS!) have made me pretty cynical about a genre I love deeply.

                          Some of these films may look decent and feature good actors, but most of their edges have been smoothed to the point where, for me, they're pretty useless as horror films. Whereas Craven and his peers were delivering all the superficial requirements of the genre along with subtext and themes in the 70s and 80s, we now seem to have tone deaf stylists who make films that promote cheap jolts in lieu of proper scares and engaging storytelling (the British critic Mark Kermode also disapproves of this development).

                          V/H/S is a shallow film which deserves little attention, and I think its popularity is a sad comment on what many horror fans really want from the genre - titillation and manufactured 'retro cool'. Moreover, I very much doubt the classic themes of mortality, repressed desires, and the connection between sex and death matter to those who make and champion films like Insidious. It seems to me they're more interested in slamming doors and saying "Boo!"

                          Essentially, I'd rather give Creature another spin with Iggy and Tim. But will admiring Julie Adams make me the real monster? (CUE LIGHTNING/MUSIC).
                          We have met the Creature... and he slams Guinness.

                          The Bear raises some great points - horror back in the 70s & 80s pulled far fewer punches compared to what we have now. But, like horror itself, there's always cycles. I'm hoping we're hitting the downside of the current cycle with the ghosts and haunting stuff, as well as the found footage junk (Like Iggy, I've yet to see an effective found footage film, mostly since there's so much telegraphing of upcoming scares that my interest wanes when the good shit happens).

                          On the misogyny tack, not seeing too much of it in the current crop of flicks. 70s and 80s, yeah, there could be the argument for it, but as discussed before, there's another argument against it. I'm also not that against the PC patrol hemming shit in on occasion, and I'll tell you why. 9 times out of 10, when it happens, somebody comes along that shakes the tree and all sorts of cool new stuff comes out in reaction to creativity being stifled. Then the imitators come out, and every so often, somebody else will go in another direction entirely. Then the stuff the PC Patrol tried to ban becomes almost quaint in comparison.

                          Again, cycles.

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                          • #14
                            Excellent point. As for the found footage films, I don't like them because they're a) boring, with a whoooooole lotta nothin' before any scares happen, and b) out of focus. Even w/ a bigass, hi def TV I find myself straining, getting up from my seat, and running shit in slo mo just to try & figure out what the fuck I'm lookin' at. "Is that baby being. . . lifted out of its crib. . . ? I can't tell. . . " If you're seeing thie shit in a theatre, especially one packed full of screaming mouth breathers who all heard about HOW FUCKING SCARY Blair Witch/Paranormal Activity/whatever was, you don't get to do that, and probably miss half the scares you were menat to see because the DP seems hell bent on making that impossible. Time for the next trend, please.
                            I like the way the line runs up the back of the stocking.


                            2012 Avatar Theme: Jan-Red Borg. Feb-Red Borg, Mar-Red Borg, Apr-Red Borg, May-Red Borg. Jun-Red Borg. Jul-Red Borg. Aug-Red Borg. Sep-Red Borg. Oct-Red Borg. Nov-Red Borg. Dec-Red Borg.

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                            • #15
                              Heard that, Ig. Blair Witch was probably the first found-footage flick I saw and I bought into the hype very early on. I'd mentioned elsewhere that IFC ran what would later be a pseudo-documentary about the Blair Witch some time prior to the film's release. Watching that late at night was damn creepy - there was NO indication that it was anything BUT actual found footage. I was hooked until much later when they premiered the movie at Cannes and there were the three leads sipping wine and chatting with the press. Arrgh - I got played.

                              The actual movie? Meh. I was rooting for the Witch to dispatch these mugs by film's end. The characters irritated the fuck out of me no end.

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